Beiträge von ProjectionArt

    Regarding the M.150, which level of frame interpolation are you referring to? I have been watching 2 full movies in the last days, and skipped through all the fi-levels on the SIM2 to watch out for possible skipping. Usually I have the fi on high, but put it to low and medium for quite some time to check on skipping. I must say I didn´t notice any skipped frames on the M.150, no matter which fi level I was using. I stay with my verdict that I find the fi on the SIM2 pretty good and usable. On low, it is still a bit too stuttering on my huge screen, whereas on high it´s perfectly smooth, but with some blurring around moving objects. But no lost frames as far as I am aware of.

    Well this is interesting because I think it is the same on medium and high as it is on low, except maybe on low, it only activates for slow pans and certain shots but not others? My understanding is...


    Low interpolates 24fps to 48fps, but only for slow pans and certain shots. Otherwise it stays at 24fps.

    Medium interpolates 24fps to 48fps all the time.

    High is 100% the same as medium.


    Am I mistaken? If you check the "info" screen in "puremovie" mode, with no frame interpolation on, it says it is outputting at 48hz. This is because they have are doubling the same frame in order to sync it with the LED timings, but it's the same as 24fps. In other words, the info screen will always show double what the framerate is on the M-150.


    Then in "puremotion" mode with the frame interpolation set to "low," it says 96hz, which means 48fps (but only sometimes, I think). Then set to "medium," it still says 96hz. Then set to "high," it still says 96hz.


    What is your image source? Can you check different sources/players? And which GeoBox do you use? Can it output 24 Hz? And have you activated the 24 Hz throughput? If not, the GeoBox will output 60 Hz, but with a 3:2 pulldown, so no good!

    Or do you use a HTPC and have low frame repeat times? The madVR info shows you how often a frame repeat / frame drop is expected. Could this be the root cause of your problem?

    So far, I have not tried any of this stuff. I am totally new to Home Theater, started about 10 months ago, and have had to learn everything from scratch to try to plan and put together this project with both passive 3D and quality 2D. I have literally ten thousand emails and phone calls etc in that time to learn so many details. I have come a long way but still ironing some things out. For example, I have madvr successfully working on my PC, and I just bought a pre-flashed 4K UHD drive to use with it, but have not learned how to make them work together. I have asked a few people for help but so far nothing. Meaning so far, the only source I have tested anything with is the Sony x800m 4K UHD player. Not the x800m2, but the original x800m I think it's called.

    Really, that Vivitek´s FI is absolutely gorgeous! I always run it on high. Smooth as butter, and almost no visible artifacts at all. I haven´t seen nor heard of any better frame interpolation. I luckily don´t have a problem with rainbows, but if you are sensitive to that, it might be a problem. If you see them in 2D, you also see them in 3D, that makes no difference. However, as these Viviteks have RGBRGB 6-speed colorwheels, it´s the best possible colorwheel solution (for rainbows as well as for Gamut).

    What type of colorwheel did the 2 DLPs have that bothered you?


    How many lumens do you get, calibrated, from each Vivitek? The two models I had rainbow problems with were this, https://www.amazon.com/Optoma-…r-Projector/dp/B00MK39P92, the Optoma Hd141x, and the Infocus IN83.


    Also, the only lcos I have seen is the JVC RS4500. Unfortunately it was just a demo of scenes I was not familiar with, except for one. Say there were 7 scenes demoed total. Six I was unfamiliar with, one I was familiar with. The first six, when I was watching I thought, "I completely made the right decision. The motion is much worse, and the picture is much noisier." But the one scene I was familiar with, I immediately became confused, not knowing what to think, because it seemed exactly the same motion and noise level as the M-150. I have heard some people say JVC made big improvements in motion going from the e-shift generations of mdoels to the NX line, which is where the doubt comes into play whether I would get just as good native motion with a modern JVC as with DLP, but perhaps a more powerful and reliable frame interpolation algorithm on a 2018 model than a 2012 Sim2, because of the improvements in processing power in that time.

    Definitively a non-factor! The projectors in a stack drift all the time with temperature (warm-up <-> cool down). That´s what makes it so hard (nearly impossible) to establish a long-term-stable stack (or edgeblend) for 2D. Because half a pixel off, and the image is completely blurred and your sharpness is gone :beat_plaste .

    Luckily, for 3D this is a completely different story.

    But for 2D, if I want to use 3-chip DLP, does this mean if I buy a 3-chip DLP where the red pixel is off 0.5+ pixels from the others, throw it in the trash?


    And last question at the moment. Have you ever tried JVC NX5/NX7/NX9 aka RS1000/RS2000/RS3000 projectors "Clear Motion Drive," or the Sony VW885ES or similar models frame interpolation? Do you know if they ever skip frames?


    I would be extremely interested to hear, with your trained eye, if you notice the M-150 frame interpolation ever skipping frames. When a projector skips an interpolated frame every 30 seconds, it ruins the entire effect for me.


    I want to do my 3D stack with whatever the best projectors are I can afford that have frame interpolation that does not ever skip an interpolated frame, that keeps the smooth pace consistent like a clock. My preference was for DLP, so I thought either M-150's or Superlumises would be perfect for this, however, if their algorithm is sometimes skipping frames, which I believe it is (unless my settings are wrong and causing the problem, or something), then sadly it sort of ruins the whole purpose of buying them for 3D. For 2D, they are still great projectors to watch without frame interpolation, although even then, who is to say I would not prefer to watch 2D with frame interpolation on as well if it was not skipping frames? Whenever there is a rare scene where it doesn't skip at all, I do prefer the frame interpolation to having it off. So if it is skipping, that basically throws a wrench into everything I've spent months buying and setting up, not just for 3D but possibly for 2D too! :( True, at least for 2D, I can use PC interpolation, but that is not giving you a balanced number of original frames and interpolated frames, rather it is probably using all artificial frames, "blending" etc," in order to turn 24 into 48. But at least there is some option there).


    And if the Sim2's cannot do it without skipping frames, then I believe there are no other high end 1080p DLP projectors with frame interpolation besides them, which means I would have to look at lcos. Or I could copy your solution with Vitiek's or Optoma's, but I already tested two color wheel projectors and both bothered me. Maybe the rainbows would disappear in 3D though?


    Man, it is so difficult. Even after I found the perfect models on paper, both high quality projectors but also with the full features I needed, and even after I spent months to find them on the used market, their feature turns out to (seemingly) not perform correctly, something I could never have known until I bought them. In fact, the only person before you I found who had an M-150 told me that the frame interpolation was great...


    So now, I have to determine if it is truly the case or not that they are skipping frames, and if so, then I have to start over looking for something else. But the first step, if you can help me with your trained eyes, is to see if the M-150 is skipping frames. (For reference, whatever I noticed it doing, the Superlumis does in the exact same places. So either both are interpolating well, or both have the same problem). If it is, then unless you know of some Digital Projection model with frame interpolation, or some other 1DLP rgbLED or 3-DLP model with frame interpolation, to try, then Im guessing my best hope would be Sony or JVC 4K models. But I've at least heard rumblings that JVC may also skip frames, however I have not confirmed this. That would leave Sony. People always say Sony is known for good processing... maybe that will be the only one that can do it besides the color wheel DLP's? But step one, I need to figure out if the Sim2's are skipping interpolated frames at times, or not. Because of course I hope they are not, and that I can use them as I planned to after all.

    I have not seen it skip a frame or drop one with CMD on vs off.
    It is possible that I dont recongize it or that this comes from slight differences between the source frequency and the JVC or your player / device. For example differences between 23,976 fps vs 24 fps

    Thanks for your answer. Because of what you said, that it's something some people will notice and some people won't, the more people who can give their answers, or test and report back, the better. I wish I could test every projector myself but that's difficult, haha. The next best option is to get as many answers as possible until patterns emerge.

    Staying with the projector choice: I wouldn´t consider laser-phosphor single-chip DLPs, especially with RGBW color wheels as your linked Christie above. Those have very limited gamuts, nothing for home cinema use.

    I only realized this after. I thought it was 3-chip like the others.

    First of all, as you obviously struggle with envisioning the multiple impacts on geometry and light distribution that come with a curved screen, I also strongly recommend you to get familiar with the hotspot simulator from FoLLgoTT !

    I couldn't get it to work. Thanks for explaining that it is a winrar problem. I will go back to it!

    Gain 5, gain 8, gain 10... As if you could pick whichever gain you choose off the shelf somewhere :shock: . Same goes for single or double curved. Other than the aforementioned Couchscreen, which is a very special case, I am not aware of one single manufacturer of double curved screens for home cinema use. So as long as you don´t go the "hard way" and construct one by yourself as I did, single curved is the only option for you. And then again, which company offers curved screens of the desired size with more than gain 2 (or something the like)?

    There is some company in China that had a 19 gain screen, and also, I dont remember, 4, 6, 7. But there was at least one option there. And couchscreen I was told is 6 gain? So I was thinking I have high gain options if needed, and that I might need them because the Infitec filters could take 75% of the light from a bulb projector, and maybe 85% from the M-150's (provided they will work at all). I am also unclear, let's say the Infitec filters do only leave 10% of the red color in one M-150, can I simply turn the red 90% down on the other M-150, and use a 10 gain screen, and now have 100% red on each projector? 10% on each multipled by 10 = 100%. Etc. Or even with a 10 gain screen, will turning red down so much with 3D luts etc prevent the M-150 from reaching rec709?


    The part I dont understand is, if the M-150's colors are turned down too low to reach rec709 measuring from the lens, does this also mean it cannot do it onscreen? Or if you measure it off the screen with a high gain screen, can the high gain screen increase not only the brightness, but the rec709 coverage as well due to reflecting back higher "color luminance" than is coming out of the lens?


    But if this were the case, how come a normal rec709 projector cannot reach 100% bt2020 color coverage by using a high gain screen? I have never heard of this being the case, so I will assume what I am asking will not work, but, just checking.


    Seating postition and projector position are to be considered exactly the same way! There is no difference technically. So as long as you want a decent image uniformity for a complete row of seats, don´t waste any more thoughts on gains higher than something around 2! And if you stick in the region of around gain 2, you also don´t have to waste a single thought on the slightly differing projector positions, as you will never be able to notice it on your screen!


    I see. Then couchscreen is ruled out I guess since it is 6 gain, unless it has special properties that will make it work. And using the M-150's in anything but linear polarization stack is also ruled out. :( Because the only way that would work is with probably, minimum, 4 gain. Maybe 3.5 depending on if it's true or not that using "LED overlap" mode will increase the projector's brightness by 25% and still allow it to reach rec709 calibrated. So my questions about linear polarization vs Infitec suddenly become much more relevant.


    I really really appreciate your help and advice! It is not just complicated about stacking in general, but because of determining what equipment to use, and to match with other equipment, most of which is not an option for me to test, so asking the people who already determined the info is the best way.

    I would say yes. With two additional PCs! I have already had the same idea and thought about it. After the Geobox, you have two standard 1080p24 pictures for each projector. You could now build 2 identical PCs with grabber cards and AMD fluid motion, and send those two streams through those machines, 24p in, 60p out. In theory this should work. Don´t know which drawbacks would await you if you tried in practice, but I´m sure there will be some...

    Someone has told me you can lose perfect sync with separate PCs, except if you use nvidia quadro cards, or did they mean using one quadro on the same PC, or two on the same PC? I do not know.



    Yes, I own a M.150, just read my post above :zwinker2:

    I think it said "my beloved Sim2" so I didnt know if it was the Sim2 M-150 or a different Sim2, although the context was 90% talking about an M-150.

    Coming to your question: you own two M.150s. Go ahead and play with them, test them, find out what you wanna know! I cannot tell you whether the native contrast will be enough for your demand and in your specific setup. I can only say, for me it does the job. And it does it (most of the time) better than my JVC X7000 with more than 10 times the native contrast. But that might not be valid for you. Same for rainbows. Watch some content with it and then judge if it works for you or not. Nobody can take that decision from you.


    That is helpful to know. Yes I have them but white walls right now, for another month or two while it takes to get curtains made for an entire 2,000 cubic foot room, so it's helpful to hear other people's opinions, especially ones with experience with other projectors. I do not actually own any projector that is considered high contrast not just for DLP, but overall, so it is helpful to learn from others' experiences. I wish I had the knowledge from testing many different projectors but it is too much to buy all at once with risk of not being able to re-sell, and too much work right now.

    I find the FI of the Sim2 pretty good. On a scale from 0 to 10, where the Vivitek is a 9.5 and the Optoma maybe a 8.5, I would rank the Sim2 somewhere around 8. It does some blurring/smearing/tearing around objects in the foreground before a moving background, which is more visible and bothersome than on the Vivitek, but still very good. For comparison, the JVC X---- series FI would rank around 5 on my personal scale...

    That said, I haven´t experienced frame drops with the Sim2 yet. Should pay attention to this when I watch the next movie on it.

    I understand that it is very hard to come across 2 Superlumis! I just suggested it based on your statement that you are lucky to find preowned Sim2 for decent money in the US...

    Thanks yes that was a great suggestion. It is definitely the easiest way to go if I can find it. There is also the issue of Superlumis samples, if one has slightly uneven misconvergence over here, while the other has it over there, and they do not match up. I wonder if that would be any issue for 3D? I have warping from the geobox, so I can align things correctly. The only thing I cannot align is misconvergence of red, green, or blue on a 3 chip projector. Whereas, the two M-150's are single chip, so they have no misconverged red, green, or blue. Is hypothetically let's say 1 pixel difference of only 1 color, between two Superlumises, something that will make any difference in the 3D, something that I should be factoring into this decision as an advantage for the M-150's, or is it "close enough," since it is usually only 1 color and not the entire pixel, that it's a non-factor in this case?

    As I also wrote before, I personally see the gain limit for flat screens at a maximum of 1.5. Wouldn´t go higher, even with your huge viewing distance. But like I said, there is no rule of thumb for this, you have to find out for yourself. And you really should play with that hotspot simulator for a while, as it will dramatically improve your understanding about the correlation of high gain, projection distance and viewing distance.

    Is 1.5 your maximum for 2D, or for 3D also? Because some people have said, as with frame interpolation's negatives, that the negatives of high gain screens are less visible in 3D. Well, sheen for sure. Hotspotting, the comments were not as clear, but I think even hotspotting was less visible in 3D. Have you tested > 1.5 in 3D or 2D or both?


    It's not letting me quote the next part, but no I didn't see your build thread? AHHHH now I see the problem. I missed your entire first response to me!! The first one I got notification for was "there is only one way to learn about FI. Test it. Etc." That is also why I only knew you had a "Sim2" not an M-150. Haha. Oops! I will read that.

    Buy those filters from Omega Optical and test it with your Sim2s. If you experience troubles related to the narrowband light source, then you can look for some alternatives. Regardless of which projectors you will use, I would opt for some sheeting with a gain of around 2, if you can find it, even a bit more (2.5 - 3), due to your large viewing distance. Then calculate the curvature matching your circumstances and see how it works out for you. My estimation will be that gain 2, max. gain 3 together with the right curvature will work out quite well for you, even for the two side seats. It´s a compromise for sure (like everything), but the benefits will outrun the detriments.

    I bought Infitec filters already, but they have different wavelengths than Omega. Omega also have the original "DLP" version plus also what they dubbed the "LCD" version, which is confusing because apparently it was first developed for SXRD Sony cinema projectors. I asked them which they would recommend for LED projectors and they have no idea. Whoever designed them does not seem to still be with the company, and they wouldn't answer how I could contact him either, in fact it was perplexingly difficult to get an answer about that. So it would require buying three different sets of filters, which are not particularly cheap, just to see if any matches the M-150's well. I will certainly test the Infitec filters once I figure out what stand to get for my xrite i1display pro plus sensor, and install the software and learn how to use it. I have gotten through the first 2,000 things on the list, and this is very high on the remaining 1,000 :D :D :( If the result seems hopeless then I will use linear polarization 3D with the M-150's, or find different projectors that will work with Infitec.


    That is another question for you. I know that linear polarization 3D degrades if you tilt your head, but, provided the viewer keeps his head upright, do you think there is any difference in 3D, eye strain, etc, the overall experience, with linear polarization 3D (i.e. IMAX 3D at least before they switched to lasers) compared to Infitec 3D (i.e. Dolby 3D, as you know)? Does having differently polarized light go to each eye at the same time do something weird to the eyes or brain, or is the effect the same as Dolby 3D except for the head-tilting drawback? I've heard stories about people getting nauseous from circular polarization 3D (realD) so I wondered if the differently polarized light to each eye could be the culprit, but I haven't heard stories like this about linear polarization 3D, in fact some people said they liked it while they didn't like circular. And on the other hand, some people get nauseous from any type of 3D period.


    But basically the question is, if I cannot get Infitec 3D to work, is it a "downgrade" to do linear polarization instead? Of course the head tilt issue is a downgrade, but is it a downgrade in any other ways, or should the experience be the same besides this?


    On a Stewart 3D screen (3.0 gain, 25 degree half gain viewing angle), or a Severtson 3D GX with 2.5 to 3 gain and a similar viewing angle, or a Severtson 3D GX with Wide Angle coating (can increase the half gain angle to 40 degrees on a 3.0 gain screen, but I have no idea whether that coating degrades the picture in other ways), I should be able to do linear polarization 3D with crosstalk at about 0.5% with the filters mounted in front of the projector lenses. Mounting them inside might make a small difference but since the major limiting factor is still the screen, not the filters, not a huge difference.


    With "gen 1" Infitec filters mounted in front of the lens, projectorreviews.com measured 0.4% crosstalk. I have "gen 2" Infitec filters, so I don't know if they are less affected by this, but I have to assume it's the same. However, mounting them inside the projectors, I'm guessing I could get crosstalk down to 0.1%, since in theory they should be performing at over 99.9% efficiency, and therefore one surmises that the only reason they measured as low as 99.6% in projectorreviews.com tests was that the projector beam was spreading out by the time it left the lens and so some of the light was hitting the filter at an angle instead of straight ahead. And this is what projectorreviews.com also said was the cause. However, mounting them inside the projector would be fairly complicated...


    So with the filters in front of the projector lenses, even the crosstalk is essentially the same (if you don't tilt your head). This adds back to the question of whether there is something innate in the way the filters operate with the eyes and brain that even when the crosstalk is identical, one would still be better to use if possible, or no? And then, once you get to 0.5% crosstalk or below, are the improvements visible, or will they impact eye strain and headaches? Going from 0.5% to 0.1% is a 5x improvement, which you could say is "five times better," and definitely worth it, or you could say, "it's probably not visible either way at 0.5% or below, so it's not worth modifying the projector." What do you think? Is 0.5% already low enough to not be seen or felt? Projectorreviews said that 0.5% is the threshold at which it is generally visible or noticeable on a test pattern or something like that, so 0.5% would be right at the "official" border of visible/not visible. But most people who used linear polarization set ups had way more than 0.5% and most didn't seem to notice any crosstalk in content, so... again it's very difficult to test without buying an expensive screen, modifying projectors just to compare them before and after, etc etc, and much easier to ask people in case they have tested it before themselves, or have learned the knowledge from someone else.


    My estimation will be that gain 2, max. gain 3 together with the right curvature will work out quite well for you, even for the two side seats. It´s a compromise for sure (like everything), but the benefits will outrun the detriments.

    Would you recommend 2.35:1 screen, using dual anamorphic lenses, in order to maximize the number of pixels being used for 2.35:1 movies, which make up most but not all of the 3D movies, or do you think from 1.5 viewing distance, about 26% less pixels, which are each 26% bigger, will not make any perceptible difference, and I am better off having the big 16:9 screen for 3D movies, since depth can be created with good height of a screen, and then maybe masking the same size for 2.35:1 that I would use for a 2.35:1 screen? I would get a better 16:9 experience, but less pixels, and bigger pixels, for 2.35:1 movies. Either way, it is a trade off, but the question is whether each tradeoff will be visible, or whether only the size of the 16:9 screen will be visible from 1.5 viewing distance, but not the extra and smaller pixels from using anamorphic lenses?

    Sure there is a way to tell how good the quality of any FI is - watch it, test it, and then judge for yourself. Frame interpolation ist a difficult topic, there is no absolute right or wrong or better or worse. In the end it even comes down to a question of personal taste. I for myself can not accept the terrible judder of 24p, as with my screen size and viewing distance, it is absolutely unbearable. And yes, I can confirm that a very good FI is even more important for 3D watching. This is why I chose Vivitek 1188 for my 3D stack, as these sport the best, flawlessly working FI that I have seen until today - and I have tested and compared many of them.


    In order to be able to use also professional projectors (e.g. 3-chip DLPs) in my cinema, which hardly ever come with integrated FI, I extensively tested and compared the 3 PC-based frame interpolation solutions available: SVP, AMD Fluid Motion and Dmitri Render. SVP is getting better and better and has many tuning options. It makes use of the CPU instead of the GPU, which is also helpful as one needs all the available GPU power for MadVR. However, up to now there is no possibility to get SVP running together with MadVR tonemapping, so it is basically useless. Luckily, not so with AMD Fluid Motion. I can run fluid motion on an older AMD graphics card (newer ones don´t support it any more), but still have another, way more powerful GPU for MadVR rendering. So it is basically a dual GPU setup with one GPU only for the FI, and the other one (can then also be a NVidia) for all the other stuff. This solution gives very satisfying results in terms of frame interpolation. My conclusion after many long comparisons is that the AMD FI works very well, absolutely smooth and fluid, only little artifacts from time to time. It doesn´t fully reach the perfection of the Vivitek or some other good DLP solutions such as Optoma HD83 or the like, but it is fairly close. In any way it performs noticeably better and more flawless than the JVC FI in the X series.

    But coming to the downside: regardless of which PC-based FI we are talking about: they cannot work with 3D BluRays, as the frame packed format doesn´t support passing 60 Hz on to the projector. This is why, for my 3D stack, I have to do the frame rate conversion after the splitting in right and left image (GeoBox 601), within the projectors.


    Also, for 2D, I dont know how to do it, but I think I saw people using SVP and madvr together, without the use of "VideoProcessor" also. Not 100% sure but pretty sure there is some way to do it. It would be buried somewhere on that same forum I linked.


    Edit: I went through my old searches for SVP and madvr. This mentions madvr: https://www.svp-team.com/wiki/SVP:MPC-HC


    This has more instructions halfway down the page: https://www.svp-team.com/wiki/SVP:4K_and_HDR


    More: https://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4448, https://www.reddit.com/r/softw…rpolation_svp4madvrmpchc/, https://www.reddit.com/r/Windo…hcbe_with_madvrsvp_guide/, https://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=5353, Madvr also has smooth motion. Does top response say it's better? https://www.svp-team.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=1287

    This is why, for my 3D stack, I have to do the frame rate conversion after the splitting in right and left image (GeoBox 601), within the projectors.

    Is there a way to put the separated left and right eye images, after the Geobox, back into the PC to use PC frame interpolation on them, without losing the sync of left and right eye signals? Maybe with this or something? https://www.avsforum.com/threa…or.3206050/#post-60846896

    If I were you, I would go and search for two Sim2 Lumis for your 3D stack, and keep one of your M.150 for 2D. They all have decent frame interpolation, so you don´t have to worry about that. The lumis is brighter, but with a "normal" light source, so optimal for a passive stack with interference filters.

    And finally, for 2D, the brightness of the M.150 is more than enough on a gain 2 screen of your size, and all the other qualities of this machine are impeccable.


    Btw, concerning 2k vs. 4k: NEVER would I go for a 4k projector with less quality in your case! Your viewing ratio (viewing distance divided by screen width) is so huge (must be in the region of 1.5:1, right?), you will never ever benefit from the higher resolution as much as you do from the other qualities of your SIM2s.

    I have a viewing ratio of around 0.6-0.7:1 (appr. 2.7 m seating distance, 4 m visible screen width), which is absolutely borderline in terms of resolution (by means of an anamorphic lens it is acceptable). And still I haven´t found a projector which gives me a better overall performance than my beloved Sim2.

    Do you have the M-150? Do you think the single chip native contrast is a problem? (like 3,000:1 I have heard. I do not have my measurement equipment set up yet to measure mine, or my black curtains yet). The Lumis lineup has not just 5,000:1 or 6,000:1 native contrast, but dynamic contrast multiplied to around 20,000:1. Even the Mico 50 has dynamic contrast multiplied to I think 14,000:1 or so (although this model has no frame interpolation, cannot make near black shades like the M-150, coil wine at full LED power, etc, apparently). The M-150 is the only top Sim2 model where, I have heard, the dynamic contrast does not reach above 5,000:1. That is my biggest concern using it as my main projector, along with rainbow effect, although I have only seen maybe 1 every five hours. It has been a non-issue so far, but just knowing it is a possibility gives me "commitment issues," hehe.


    How do you think the M-150 frame interpolation compares to the Optoma 83 and Vivitek? I think it is very good except I dont know if my mind is playing tricks, but after bright flashes in a scene, it feels like it might drop a frame, and also after camera cuts sometimes to a new scene, it feels like it drops a frame. The whole point of frame interpolation is that it's smooth. Even with some artifacts, it should be smooth. Any dropped frame here or there is ruining the whole thing for me, at least in 2D. Maybe dropped frames will be less visible in 3D? I hope? I tested two M-150's and I am seeing the same effect at the same time in the same movies on both of them. I would much rather listen to a fast song where every 20 seconds, one of the fast drum beats creates a slight distortion, that a fast song where every 20 seconds, the entire song cuts out to zero volume for a split second before coming back. I can't stand dropped frames (at least in 2D) in frame interpolation. I can't believe Sim2 projectors would have that, because they are high end. I thought "at least they won't drop frames." And maybe they are not, maybe it is something else, but I also tested a Superlumis frame interpolation and its frame interpolation does the same thing at the same points in the same movies as the M-150. As for your suggestion, it could be 2030 before I find two of them used. The less bright models with frame interpolation would still take awhile, but not as long, however they are less bright and would still require a 2 gain screen as you said, which may defeat the purpose?


    It really depends, from 1.5 distance away, how much gain is too much on a flat screen before the negatives of high gain screens, like hotspotting and sheen, become visible? Because if high gain screens are acceptable, then two M-150's can possibly do the same job as two Superlumises, provided you raise the gain high enough (and provided the filters will work with the LED lightsource if you have enough brightness headroom to manipulate the colors with 3D lut). And then there is also the question about removing hotspotting by using a curved screen, but will this prevent hotspotting for the center seat only, or also seats that are let's say halfway between the center seat and the edges of the screen, or maybe even 65/35 closer to the edges than the center?


    And a curved screen requires less warping to fit the image on it if you use two anamorphic lenses, but is double-stacking with two anamorphic lenses viable even with warping, or will it be impossible to align two projectors, even with warping, when using anamorphic lenses? I always figured "if warping can correct it without anamorphic lenses, then it can correct it with anamorphic lenses. Once the anamorphic lenses are on, both projectors will be throwing images where they are, and then you just warp them back to the proper place, same as if you weren't using anamorphic lenses." But other people have warned me not to attempt it with two anamorphic lenses. At the same time, they have never attempted it (but neither have I).


    There are so many variables involved. One variable leads into another. The one "sure thing" is two Superlumis, with the rarer "high brightness" lenses to maximize brightness, shooting onto a flat 1.0 or 1.3 gain screen. But like I said, it could be years before I find that, and the prices seem to be all over the place too, sometimes workable compared to the price of a used M-150, and sometimes pretty crazy. At least, that's what I was told, but really I dont know. You cant even find records of any past sales in the U.S. to see the prices. But if there is a way to do frame interpolation for both right eye and left eye signals on a PC, that would give me many more options of bright 3 chip projector models that dont have frame interpolation. That would also open up yet another variable, "how does PC frame interpolation from 23/24fps to 60fps compare to frame interpolation from 23/24 to 47/48fps, where it fits evenly?" And what framerate is better for 3D in general, 48, or 60? But at this point, I would take it, regardless...


    Otherwise if not, stacking M-150's is probably the best direction for me, short of just getting two Optoma 83's or Vivitek's with bulb lightsource, like you mentioned, where I now know the frame interpolation is reliable, except now I am definitely having a rainbow effect problem (unless it disappears in 3D or something?). But assuming I will get better results in that way, and maybe overall picture quality, with double-stacked M-150's, I'd definitely appreciate your advice about how high gain I can go, on a flat screen, without problems, from 1.5 distance away, as well as whether doing a curved screen so I can go higher gain than whatever that is without issues is a good idea, as well as whether a curved screen will eliminate hotspotting only for the center seat or also the side seats, as well as whether to use horizontal curves only or horizontal + vertical curves, as well as whether to use double anamorphic lenses or not.


    *Lets out deep breath.* I very much apologize for the complexity of it all, but, this is what I am dealing with, lol, so you can see why I need the advice so badly.

    Thanks a lot. Everything translated in a way I could understand except the part about the Panasonic. Google translate is saying that "emotionally" it is better because of laser lightsource and dynamic iris. I wasn't sure what the German word for "emotionally" is meaning but it's probably a little different than "emotionally." Also, don't Christie's also have dynamic contrast? Or not this model?


    That is great that convergence is perfect in the center. That is more important than the sides. When you say 1 pixel off on the sides of one model, do you mean 1 pixel of misconvergence and chromatic aberration total, or 1 pixel of misconvergence plus also an unspecified amount of chromatic aberration? Because I have seen a projector where the clear pixel was misconverged half a pixel but then there was a less defined shade of the same color that added another 1 pixel, but you couldnt make out the pixels clearly, and the shade was a little lighter, so I concluded it was chromatic aberration. Half a pixel of misconvergence, which you can see more defined pixel structure, and 1 pixel of chromatic aberration. Do yours have both or just misconvergence? How much of each?


    Also I ask for academic purposes, to learn going forward. If it was 0.5 pixels off across the entire screen, not just the center, would this affect the sharpness or picture quality at all from normal viewing distances? Or would it look less sharp up close than a perfectly converged version of the projector, or a 1-chip equivalent of the same projector, but from viewing distance, it would look 100% the same? In other words, a total non-issue? What about 1 pixel off across the entire screen?


    You know how there are those viewing charts that say, "For this viewing distance and screen size, 4K resolution matters compared to 1080p. But from this viewing distance and screen size, it takes up this it doesn't"? I wonder if there is anything similar for convergence? "For this screen size and viewing distance, 1 pixel of misconvergence is noticeable. But from this size/distance, it is not." Etc.


    Thank you very much. Is there any way to know what is involved with this? I am in the U.S. and I believe I have seen used HD6 or HD10's for sale, probably usually without the lenses. I don't remember the price, but the question is, say you get one of these without the lens, then what other steps are necessary to get a high contrast lens like you're talking about? Are they already available or do you have to modify it yourself? Google translate is translating what people are saying about it as "tuning" the lens, or "lens tuning." I have no idea how to modify a lens myself, if that's what it means.


    Also, if you know of any models besides certain Lumis models (or the laser version which I also already know about) in their names like the HD6 or HD10, but that also have frame interpolation from 23/24fps to 47/48fps, I've been wondering if there are any like that that people don't know about.


    Thank you very much for sharing this information. Do you by any chance know how this Barco and Christie compare to these models?


    https://www.projectorcentral.com/Barco-F82_1080p.htm . And is this the same as the cineo 82?


    https://www.projectorcentral.c…and_Cinema_SUPERLUMIS.htm


    https://business.panasonic.de/visuelle-systeme/pt-rq13


    Also, what is the difference after the lens mods between the Christie HD10K-M and HD6K-M? From the factory I assume one is 10,000 lumen, one is 6,000 lumen, but what is the end result for each with the high contrast lenses? Can you squeeze more contrast out of the 10K than the 6K?


    Finally, I am wondering how many pixels, or fractions of pixels, the Christie was misconverged in the center, and in the corners, and how many pixels or fractions of pixels for the Barco cineo82 as well?

    This is really amazing, and I would like to use it. However, I cannot get it to work. When I try to click it in winzip or winrar, it tells me it's not free, and after 40 days you need to buy it, but the only options it gives me are to "close" or buy it right away or "how to buy." No option to open it and use it for free for 40 days. Is it supposed to be useable for free for 40 days? If I end up using it a lot I will pay for it but I think I just need to use it a few times this week. Maybe the problem is I dont have excel on my computer, only in google sheets?


    Until I can get help to make it work, what I am trying to figure out, if anyone can run it for me and also knows how much hotspot is enough to become visible in content, is how high gain flat screen I can go with a 1.75:1 throw distance, and 1.5:1 viewing distance. I would prefer to use a curved screen to go higher gain but with double stacked projectors apparently any curve, even horizontal only curve, will create alignment issues at the corners because the angles of the two projectors are different. So I need to know how high I can go with flat screen before hotspot is an issue.

    One more recommendation would be the Barco RLM W Series. W8 for example, or even W12. These are not too loud (in professional scales) and rather cost-efficient. The Gamut is not the largest, but can be increased decently beyond Rec.709 by means of a didymium filter. Contrast would also have to be improved by adding one or two irises. Dynamic contrast and frame interpolation is not available.

    But the basis is good to improve upon - in the end it's all about the question "which model can you find second hand and how much are you willing to spend on it". This is usually a tad more difficult than walking into a pro shop with 100 grand and picking the rig of your choice - believe me, I know what I'm talking about :sbier:

    Do you know what contrast it can get after those modifications? Does it have dynamic contrast feature?


    Also, does anyone know the noise levels on these and what kind of contrast these can get? https://www.projectorcentral.com/Barco-F85_1080p.htm or the F82 version?


    If you take out my "frame interpolation" requirement, are these, the Barco RLM W8 and W12, and the Christie PT-RQ13 and Christie HD10K-M, the best options, or are there any others to add to the list now that we've eliminated frame interpolation?


    I notice some of these appear to have nicer lenses than the Sim2 Lumis line, but the Sim2 Lumis line may have better native contrast, as well as a decent dynamic contrast multiplier. It raises a question, how important is the lens? What effect does it have from seating distance? Up close, sometimes I can see chromatic aberration on these HT projectors, but from seating distance, you can't consciously see it anymore. My question is, even if you can't consciously see it anymore, is it still causing some sort of subconscious blur, or strain on the eyes, where the eyes are still picking up the light particles from the chromatic aberration even if you cannot consciously make them out through all the other "correct" light particles making up the image?


    Or is it the case from seating distance, that if you cannot consciously see the chromatic aberration on a worse lens anymore, then if you view an image with a better lens side by side, the images will look identical, and feel identical, because the benefits of the greater lens are not visible from your viewing distance?


    It reminds me of how, out of the three people I have seen online who have owned both the Sim2 Lumis, and the Runco LS-10, two seemed to prefer the LS-10. This always confused me because both projectors seem very similar other than the Lumis is a better version on paper. The Lumis is 3-chip with 0.95 DMDs, and has higher contrast. The Runco is 3-chip with 0.65 DMDs, and lower contrast. it is just probably just randomness, or small sample size, but the only other explanation I could think of is, what if none of the lenses on models like that are big enough to fully resolve the 0.95 DMDs, and therefore they are creating chromatic aberration? Whereas the 0.65 DMDs, while worse DMDs, are taking a load off the lenses, and able to work with those lenses without as much chromatic aberration. So maybe the worse chip is actually able to create a sharper image than the better chip because the worse chip can interact with these HT-sized lenses with less negative effects?


    I have never had the opportunity to try a Christie or Barco type of lens, so I dont know what is better, 20,000:1 contrast with a Sim2 lens, or 10,000:1 contrast with a Christie lens, and stuff like that. What do you think?

    Your point about frame interpolation is something I wanted to ask more about. I am guessing you are talking about SVP frame blending? So the first question would be, is there any way to tell how good quality that is, which converts 23/24 frames per second movies into 60fps and has to use "blending" because 23/24 do not fit into 60 evenly, compared to frame interpolation on a Lumis 3D-S or Sim2 M-150 which evenly doubles the frames from 23/24 to 47/48? Not to mention even if 23/24 could fit evenly into 60, 60 is higher than 48 so maybe more soap opera effect? But also smoother so... it depends how good the "blending" is compared to regular interpolation? In any case, the main reason I want frame interpolation is for double-stack 3D, and unless I am mistaken, I do not think SVP works with 3d blu-rays at all. But if it does then it would be a great option.

    Hello, I am new to the forum. I apologize I dont speak German, only english. Please call me Art. I am building a little HT with projectors and screens. I am sensitive to motion blur so I was always advised to use DLP projectors, but it's an open unanswered question for me whether the latest generation of lcos, like JVC NX, or the next one, like the JVC NZ, still has worse motion than DLP, or not. But unless I learn that the motion is the same now, I will stick with DLP like I have been in the past. My memory for like twenty years ago is still that nothing comes close to CRT motion, but the only CRT display I had was a 35 inch TV, so it is hard to compare a 100+ inch projected image now to a 35 inch image from my memory 20 years ago. :D I am also attempting to double stack projectors for 3D, which has been quite the complication.



    One more recommendation would be the Barco RLM W Series. W8 for example, or even W12. These are not too loud (in professional scales) and rather cost-efficient. The Gamut is not the largest, but can be increased decently beyond Rec.709 by means of a didymium filter. Contrast would also have to be improved by adding one or two irises. Dynamic contrast and frame interpolation is not available.

    But the basis is good to improve upon - in the end it's all about the question "which model can you find second hand and how much are you willing to spend on it". This is usually a tad more difficult than walking into a pro shop with 100 grand and picking the rig of your choice - believe me, I know what I'm talking about :sbier:


    Thanks very much. Good idea to introduce myself. You can call me Art. My project is a bit complicated as far as projection... just a little bit... I actually need to make post about some of the most complicated aspects having to do with 3D, which it might be a big help if you guys took a lot at it since you seem to know what you are talking about. Actually I am impressed coming from a very popular english HT forum to see great answers on the best models that come closest to meeting my criteria right away, instead of going in circles for dozens of pages of arguments and questions "that's stupid why do you want that" while no one knows the answers. :D So I really appreciate the knowledge here, which is why I joined after reading the threads and seeing it, but let me get to describing my project.


    I will be sitting 15 feet from a 130 inch 2.35:1 screen for 2D. I want one bright, high quality 3 chip DLP projector for 2D HDR. I would prefer 4K of course but I dont have $100,000 to spend on a projector so it will probably be 1080p combining with madvr, although I do have a curiosity what more informed people think pf projectors like, for instance, the BenQ HT9060/x12000H, and if, despite very poor contrast, it can still perform as good or better than, for instance, a Lumis overall, simply because it has DLP sharpness combined with four times as many pixels on screen. Maybe clarity can outweigh everything else? Or is it wrong to assume it would have more clarity than a Lumis even despite 4x as many pixels?


    It sounds like there are at least some things to look into. But why 3 chip DLP? It hasnt really been a problem, but I have seen rare rainbows on 1 DLP projectors with RGB LED lightsource, specifically the Sim2 M-150. So for peace of mind, 3 chip DLP would be better for that reason. I am also very sensitive to motion blur. I compared the M-150 to a Lumis and noticed zero difference in the motion, but for peace of mind, I know 3 chip DLP cant mess it up, whereas sequential color, maybe it could even if I am not noticing? Or maybe it will for content I havent tested yet? Probably not but 3 chip DLP is to me a "sure thing."


    And except for color wheel models, which I want to avoid, and the BenQ HT9060 (which has low contrast and I think cannot output 24fps sources at 24fps), 3 chip DLP are the only bright DLP projectors I can find.


    Then for 3D, I want to double-stack projectors for passive 3D. Why? I have sensitive eyes and 3D is sort of all or nothing. Either it works for you and doesnt bother you, and you can enjoy it immensely, or it doesn't and you can't enjoy it at all or even watch it. So I want to build the best 3D setup I can afford and give myself the best chance to be able to enjoy it.


    3D stacking is the big reason why I care about frame interpolation. I have no way to know if it's true or not until I do it, but I have seen people say that the artifacts from frame interpolation are less visible in 3D, but meanwhile the benefits are a bigger deal, and that frame interpolation really enhances 3D much more than 2D. I already have two Sim2 M-150's for stacking, which should be bright enough on close to a 3 gain screen (at least, with linear polarization filters and glasses), however I am worried about hotspotting. I've seen people say it is less visible in 3D, but I dont want to take that chance given the cost of the screens I am looking at.


    Can it work? Yes. With a 2 gain screen, with polarization, I can get 15 foot lamberts after 3D filters and glasses. However, I dont know if that is actually the ideal brightness for 3D, or just the standard at a time when most theaters were not capable of achieving higher brightness than that. Additionally, I am sensitive to eye strain, and linear polarization has more crosstalk than color bandpass filters. I have the equipment necessary to do 3D luts for both projectors in a stack, so I would like to use color bandpass filters. A privilege of being in the U.S., I was able to find the M-150's at good prices, and believe I can unload them without much hassle or losing any money. If I could find 3 chip DLP projectors with frame interpolation, or at least brighter 1DLP projectors with fast sequential color like the M-150's, it should work a lot better and allow me to use color bandpass filters with less crosstalk, and a lower gain screen with less hotspotting and sheen. And if I already see rainbows sometimes, albeit very rarely, in 2D, I wonder if it could be a problem, or cause extra eye strain, to have stereoscopic sequential color. With a double stack of 3 chip projectors, there is peace of mind on that issue also.


    I was also told DLP projectors would work the best with color bandpass compared to lcos and LCD at the time I bought the M-150's, but did not know that did not apply to DLP projectors with LED lightsource. It might still work but it will require an even higher gain screen.


    Maybe the sheen wont be noticeable from 15 feet away and through 3D glasses, so if I could find a 5 to 10 gain curved screen that will not cause homogeneity issues with a projector stack, maybe I can go forward with the M-150's in a stack.


    There are many elements involved which makes it very complicated on the surface. On the other hand, it is definitely something that can be figured out, but only once you have all the information, like how bright, after the 3D filters and glasses, is the ideal brightness for 3D? What number do I want to hit for the best experience? As well as, from 15 feet away on a 135" (diagonal) 16:9 screen, how much gain before there will be hotspotting? For reference the gain screens I found so far around 3 gain have a 40 degree half gain angle. Throw distance will be 17.5 feet from lens to screen. There is also a possible "prism" solution but I will make a dedicated topic for this.

    Hello, I'm new to the forum and google helps me to speak German. : D Can you please recommend a 1080p or higher 3-chip DLP projector, either a home cinema projector with normal noise and heat levels or less, or a cinema projector that is very quiet and cool, that meets these criteria? Most likely it needs to be "used." It can be released yesterday, or 10 years ago, so long as it is excellent. The criteria are:


    - 3-chip DLP

    - 1080p or higher resolution

    - As much color space as possible

    - At least 1,750 lumens after calibration

    - 5,000: 1 or higher native contrast plus dynamic contrast 20,000: 1 or higher

    - Frame interpolation

    - Cool and quiet enough to work without a hushbox or dedicated projector cabinet

    - Maximum weight of 80 pounds.


    Thanks very much. I already know the Sim2 Lumis, so I'm looking for recommendations next to this model. If nothing exists that meets these criteria, then take away dynamic contrast and frame interpolation. But we prefer to find something in them too ... Don't drag them off the list just because it's easier, only take them off if there is really nothing apart from a few Lumis models that meet these and the other criteria: D Thank you very much!!